22 August 2010
Even More Current Events
Americans are proud of their reputation for religious tolerance. Except when they are not. Sometimes it seems that American tolerance means Catholics and Protestants can live side by side peacefully. That is great but what about all those heathen religions? The ones practiced by those whiteless Americans who are not real Americans since their grandparents came from somewhere other than Europe. From my experience Americans are far more intolerant of Muslims than are Israelis. And Israeli xenophobes have a better case for concern. And Israel never claimed to be tolerant.
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20 comments:
I live in the US and I agree with you wholeheartedly...this whole thing makes me sick. I like how you put it. Well said.
It's truly painful hearing and reading people trying not to sound bigoted. It's like they're saying,
"There's nothing wrong with being Muslim, but could you just go and be Muslim somewhere else?"
Like the back of the bus, perhaps?
I would agree with you in principle, except that the community centre/mosque is being built on the Burlington Coat Factory that was damaged beyond repair when the landing gear and part of the fusilage of Flight No. 75 crashed into it and went through three floors of the factory, after it had flown through one of the towers -- taking body parts along with it. That's about as Ground Zero as you can get. That whole area is a giant crematorium, a grave yard.
But, it's a great way to pick up some New York real estate -- cheap. Destroy it, buy it and then put up a place of worship on top of the graves of the people who died.
Tolerance is a two-way street -- or at least it should be. People should be allowed to be angry, hurt, disappointed -- any of the above -- without being called bigots. Under the circumstances, that building in that particular location is inappropriate. Completely inappropriate.
This is one of the reasons I detest all organized religions. People are just people ... no matter what religion, race, color, creed, etc. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect.
More whining from the limosine liberal pc police. They murdered 1000s of us and now you want them to spread there share laws all over america. You and your moslem buddy barak HUSSAIN osama dont deserve to be americans.
Jo, people deserve to be treated with respect. I couldn't agree more.
I don't think objecting to this mosque automatically makes one a bigot. If somebody wanted to buy that property or they want the coat factory to come back they might object. But I haven't seen any arguments against this mosque that aren't based on bigotry.
If the people who are building this mosque destroyed the original building for cheap real estate then I'd agree that they're in the wrong. And they should go to jail. But I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I think the people who destroyed it are dead. And they were never the types who'd build a mosque.
Nobody's saying that people can't be angry and hurt. But being angry at people who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened doesn't make any sense. Being angry at them because of their religion is bigotry.
Anonymous, I agree. I don't deserve to be American.
Until Americans are willing to admit that the "War on Terror" is REALLY the "War on Islam", such things will continue to happen.
According to US Law and certainly US hashkafa, there is NO REASON whatsoever not to build a Mosque there or anywhere else. Would anyone object to building a Church there? Or a Bhai temple???
Anyone who opposes this needs to think long and hard before explaining why? But one cannot dance at two chasunas. Either Islam is the problem, and we are fighting a religious and cultural war against the Muslims, or we are not. And if we are not, why should ANYONE object to a mosque?
Someone who objects to this mosque, objects to Islam plain and simple. All I'm asking is for them to be intellectually honest and ADMIT as much, otherwise THEY are being "un-American".
The question is, why are they building it now and why are they building it there?
It seems to me it is (consciously or unconsciously) meant to be a slap in the face, and I guess since America is a christian nation, "we" should "turn the other cheek", andf let them do it.
Do we theorise about sinister motives every time someone builds a place of worship? If a Catholic church is built in London, is that a slap in the face to victims of the IRA?
Where does it say America is a Christian nation? My understanding of the US constitution is that it's all about freedom of religion and no religious tests. If it really means freedom to be Christian (and I allow for the possibility that that's what they meant) then it should be clarified as such.
9/11 doesn't trump US constitution.
I don't care how you feel. The reason we get to live in this country without legal persecution is because of the same laws that allow that mosque to be built wherever it's legal to build a mosque. Feelings be damned.
@Mia - you say the people who flew into the WTC wouldn't build a mosque. But they did go to a mosque. [URL=http://www.irishexaminer.ie/world/crime/german-mosque-of-911-hijackers-shut-down-127419.html/URL] The question I have heard about this mosque is would this be "their" mosque in New York? Not the bs spin about freedom of religion. There are many mosques in NYC. What if this Imam is like those Baptist protesters at military funerals who spout their venom about gays being the cause of US casualties in Iraq & Afghanistan? What if "his" mosque is like the one shut down in Hamburg? (previous link?) What is the rush to allow this mosque to proceed without due diligence being done about its founder and where his funding is coming from? We Greeks had a church across the street from the south tower. It was totally destroyed and as of yet the Port Authority has not given the go ahead for it to be rebuilt. What is the rush????
@Bill - I don't think questioning the motives of a mosque at Ground Zero is sinister at all. Think of a Buddist Temple next to Pearl Harbor as opposed to a Shinto Shrine. The Temple might fly after 59 years but the Shrine doesn't stand a chance.
@Jo - GREAT POST!!!
Now, would you believe that in November of that year, right next to the spot where 184 people lost their lives in the Pentagon, the military opened a sanctuary where Islam could be celebrated?
This is truly on sacred ground, mind you. Not two blocks away, wedged between the Gap and Sephora in Pentagon City mall, out of sight of the original crash site.
This prayer room is a mere 30 steps from the place where terrorists crashed the nose cone of American Airlines Flight 77 through the wall and killed Pentagon secretaries and military officers, soccer moms and Little League dads in a screaming "I-have-control-of-this-plane-and-I'm-going-to-die-in-the-name-of-Allah" instant.
In this Pentagon chapel, Muslims can unroll their prayer mats once a day and give praise to Allah. On Fridays, they bring in an imam to conduct a service.
...
As we were talking about the 3,500 Muslim service members, one of the chaplains told me that there are plenty of U.S. military facilities across the globe that have spaces dedicated to Muslim services, not just interfaith chapels. "On bases in Iraq and so forth, we have mosques," he said. "No one has ever raised any concern about that."
And here's my question: Why should anyone?
They could shape their Mosque like the twin towers for all I care. If they own a property, its not up to the rest of us to decide what they get to do with it.
Yes, it's a brilliant way to get cheap real estate. It's so obvious I can't believe more people aren't doing it.
Fab,
I think you might have misread my comment. I didn't say it was sinister to question the motives, I asked why sinister motives are assumed.
You ask a lot of "what-ifs" but hey, why stop there? What if they have a secret tunnel straight to bin Laden's cave? What if they have green saliva? What if they're really Martians? Why isn't anyone talking about a possible Martian link?
Such speculation makes as much sense as objecting to a dental clinic based on viewing Marathon Man and Little Shop of Horrors.
This is just guilt by suspicion, and I think the US constitution has something to say about that as well. Of course, it would help if someone could list which sections of the constitution are sacrosanct, and which are bs spin. Or does it change depending on the mood? ;)
If someone were to build a new Catholic church in New York, would people speculate about them channeling funds to the IRA? Because there were a few that did. Would anyone say "Aren't there enough churches (or Starbucks, or McDonalds, or strip joints) in New York already?" If not, why not?
Interesting that you mention Pearl Harbour. Of all the objectors invoking Pearl Harbour, I would like to know how many of them drive a Mitsubishi.
Think about it.
Folks, all you have to do is follow the money. The organisation building this not-exactly-a-mosque has received a total of $305,000 in donations from Saudi prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, who is a close business associate of one Rupert Murdoch, and is the number 2 shareholder of News Corp with $2billion in shares.
Do I hear a consumer boycott?
Finally, isn't it interesting that a post on the US wedge issue du jour has 14 comments and counting, while a post on three unfathomable human tragedies going on right now has just one pretty lame one?
Like I said earlier, people are really in a quandary, because for all this time we've had a "war on terror" an "axis of evil" and other such euphemisms to fight against people that don't really exist. Now we can't keep up the sophistry and it is coming to light that all this time it was really ISLAM that was our enemy, and Muslims, and Americans find it offensive to put a symbol of Islam near ground zero, and suddenly are expressing concern with many of the core fundamental beliefs of Islam, and are realizing that it is in sharp contrast to their "American" values....
So what it really comes down to, is whether or not Americans are willing to declare ISLAM the enemy, and not an ambiguous "war on terror" or made up names for enemies halfway around the world. I think that everyone is starting to realize that it IS, but because we have all been brought up on tolerance and freedom of religion, people are having a hard time stomaching it and don't know what to do.
But I only see TWO legitimate options here.
1. Officially declare Islam and Islamic Ideology and Beliefs to be the root of terrorism and admit that ISLAM was behind the WTC attack and not "terrorists" or "renegades" or whatever you want to call them, and therefore it is legitimate to fight this mosque and all OTHER mosques for that matter. Or even to go so far as to declare ISLAM an official "terrorist organization" like Hamas and Al queda add therefore legitimately be able to ban it...
2. Decide that the American values of Religious freedom and tolerance are so important that it even covers such an obvious affront to our sensibilities and a clear sign of "Islamic Conquest" and therefore even though it is disgusting and "unamerican" to build this mosque, or really any mosque, we have no choice but to grin and bear it....
But one cannot be intellectually honest and say Islam is a "religion of peace" and most Muslims are fine honorable people and law abiding citizens, and then attempt to ban the ground zero mosque. What's the problem exactly? It wasn't Islam that did it, it was "terrorists" and this is a mosque, not an al queda training center. You can't have it BOTH ways, either mosques are fine everywhere or they're fine nowhere and the attempt to tow the line by differentiating "radical" or "wahabbi" islam from STAM Islam and at the same time trying to ban a mosque or even finding it "offensive" just don't go together...
Rebbe, I think too many Americans are perfectly comfortable with the idea of fighting a war against Islam.
Savannah, why is now a bad time? When would be a better time? The question of why there seems pretty simple. New York real estate is infamously hard to come by.
Fab, I don’t know anything about the people behind this mosque or the paperwork it takes to build one in New York. But I assume if they were like that Christian group that protests funerals we’d know about it by now. This group are probably the most vetted mosque builders in American history. And crazies don’t take long to show their crazy.
I’ve been inside Notre Dame but I’m not going to build a gothic cathedral.
I could be wrong, but I think there is a Shinto temple very near Pearl Harbour. I remember seeing something when I went there and it definitely wasn’t Buddhist.
Mosh, so the American military is more rational than the American people? How and when did that happen?
Bill, we’ve talked about the disparity of comments before. Whatever the talking heads on TV are on about is what people online are upset about. Your post about Sarah Palin has 20+ comments while the one about the Australian elections has 3. It’s safe to say that Fox and MSNBC talk more about Palin than Australia so more people can repeat what they were told to believe about Palin.
I think we can see things like China and Pakistan as more important than this mosque because we’re not Americans. News within America is very biased and focuses mostly on domestic issues. International news gets about as much play as sports scores.
I think Martians get blamed for too much already.
And Marathon Man still creeps me out.
You obviously dont live in NYC. If you did youd know something about terrorism.
"And crazies don’t take long to show their crazy."
TYPO ALERT!
It shuold be crazies don't take long to show they're crazy!
It took until now for me to care about this issue, and all I can say is...It wasn't worth the wait.
Anonymous #1, that's just stupid.
Anonymous #2, I meant "their".
Sweet, it's more about the latest elections than righteous indignation.
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